A battleship would have been just another target for the U-Boats". While many may think of the American Civil War as a contest that occurred only between the North and the South, the conflict was in some ways an international event. by Steen Ammentorp » 20 Sep 2006, 19:19, Post Surely the French knew why the Royal navy was forced to stop these ships from joining the Kriegsmarine? I just watched an amazing documentary about this point in history. Were the French Navy Command on the ships far from France merely "following orders" from Vichy? The French government signed an armistice with Nazi Germany and kept its armed forces under its own control. By 1849, the land was home to about 50,000 Indigenous people and a few hundred British settlers. by domi » 21 Sep 2006, 01:56, Post The British had largely eliminated the French Navy as a strategic factor in the war, and it was, said Prime Minister Churchill, “the turning point in our fortunes.” Inevitably, the clash at Mers el Kebir created lingering tension and bitterness between the two nations, even as Free French soldiers, sailors, and airmen were rallying to General Charles de Gaulle and the Allied cause. The most important one was Dunkirk. The British won every battle until the final one. Founded in 1999. Europeans didn’t arrive on the Pacific Coast in significant numbers until after the voyage of James Cook in 1778 and the mapping expedition of George Vancouver in the 1790s. Although they suffered far fewer casualties than the French and Spanish at Trafalgar, the British still lost 1,500–1,700 sailors dead or injured – no navy at the time could simply absorb such losses and retain operational effectiveness. The British Navy Has a Long History of Adopting Animal Mascots On July 31, 1970, British sailors lined up to receive their final rum ration. Faced with considerable problems at home (the mutinies of Spithead and The Nore) and invasion threats from abroad … “The ties between the people of French Canada and France had been broken long before,” Richard said. Sir Wilfrid Laurier (1841-1919), leader of the opposition, a former prime minister, and French Canada’s leading politician, called for a truce to party strife and insisted that … They are fast and carry the underwater detection and tracking equipment, as well as the necessary weaponry to attack and kill submarines. by domi » 11 Oct 2006, 20:08. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. by Luft300 » 19 Sep 2006, 01:53, Post The dominance of the British navy was a deciding factor in the outcome of the war. The French fleet answered to France and not to Britain. Didn't I read about a large French Naval fleet stationed in Canada? Which they did in a elaborate cermony. Intervention vs isolation: why didn’t America want to get involved? Can you recommend sources/further reading regarding right wing/traditionalist attitudes in the French Navy? Also, Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich spends a great deal of time discussing the French fleet, and makes clear that Hitler was deathly afraid it would be used against him, and took every possible step to insure against it. The people who wanted France to fight on from its colonies were overruled. The German high-seas fleet never materialized as a serious threat because Hitler didn't understand naval operations and restricted his major fleet units from going to sea and engaging the enemy. The French and Americans certainly were quite effective when compared to the incessant problems experienced in the British high command. Credit: Wikipedia/National Maritime Museum. This of course was Britain's traditional area of expertise, and something they had … Admiral Rene-Emile Godfroy: "For us Frenchmen the fact is that a government still exists in France, a government supported by a Parliament established in non-occupied territory and which in consequence cannot be considered irregular or deposed. The lack of manpower and investment weighed heavily! This is my understanding too. This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations and related topics hosted by the Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Christian Ankerstjerne’s Panzerworld and Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day. In it he appoligized for being so wrong. The reason is not well known: it might be for its traditional attachment to the French monarchy; because, before being named "nationale", the Navy had been named "royale" (the navy did not sport the royal titles common with other European navies like the British Royal Navy); or simply because of the location of its headquarters, rue Royale in Paris There were now fears that there would be clashes on the English Channel with French fishermen if the talks did not end in an agreement. They were to be compensated by the … by Qvist » 09 Oct 2006, 23:52, Post The Scharnhorst, Gneissenau and Prinz Eugen did get out and sink some convoys and did some damage, but these were never followed up and exploited. “Action Between Nottingham and Mars” (1746) by Samuel Scott depicts a British-French naval battle in October 1746 when the Washingtons were debating whether George should join the Royal Navy. Contrary to their assurances to the Poles Britain and France would agree to allow Russia to keep the parts of Poland seized as part of their deal with Hitler in 1939. The next plan called for an assault on British troops at Newport, Rhode Island, with the French providing naval support to an American land force. I don't feel qualified to answer this question, but if anyone is unfamiliar with this incident and wishes to investigate further on their own, the OP is asking about Operation Catapult, which took place in July of 1940, during World War II. Thanks for this writeup. After 1801, there were slightly fewer then 70,000 French navy prisoners in British hands. (2019) - Quora Simply put, it would have been a violation of the armistice treaty between France and Germany, which Germany could have used as an excuse to resume hostilities. No, I … Unfortunately, more betrayals would follow. The U.S. began sending aid to Great britain shortly after the attacks on French ports. There existed among French Canadians a tradition of suspicion and even hostility towards the British Empire, and, while sympathetic to France, Britain’s ally, few French Canadians were willing to risk their lives in its defence either. There was no 'government-in-exile' like the polish or Low Countries, meaning that alignment to France, meant Alignment to Vichy. The real threat were the U-Boats and you cannot fight U-Boats with Battleships. The British did not send large troops to support the Royal Navy until 1814. During World War I its main mission was the protection of shipping from submarine attack. Cruisers and destroyers (escort destroyers and frigates as well) are the primary ships for this kind of work. With France finally caving into the German Blitzkrieg, an armistice was signed on June 22, 1940. According to national polls of June 1939, 84% of the British favored an Anglo-French-Soviet military alliance. The British Royal Navy destroyed the Bismarck a few days later, but they were still seriously impacted by the loss of the Hood. The British Navy, aided by a volunteer flotilla of nearly 900 small merchant ships, fishing vessels and pleasure boats of all sizes, sailed across the English Channel to Dunkirk as British soldiers waited for rescue on the beach. Smashing the British navy would help in his plans to invade England, and the battle, he said, was to end "six centuries of shame and insult." In December of 1941, they Royal Navy lost both the Repulse and Prince of Wales when Japan attacked them. by dcmatkins » 08 Oct 2006, 07:45, Post The Royal Navy continued to be the world’s most powerful navy well into the 20th century. You are correct Christoph about that. by domi » 20 Sep 2006, 16:50, Post (Operation Catapult I believe it was called.) Their colonies have lost respect for their Imperial overlords, over night. enemy that had won them over. "As it turned out though, the German U-Boat was the major threat at sea against the Allies. Answers must be in-depth and comprehensive, or they will be removed. Instead the Royal Navy had to destroy the French ships to prevent them falling into Germany's hands. "I am sure that knowledge is a relief to the men crewing Ardent, Acasta, Glorious, Glowworm, Jervis Bay, Rawalpindi, the merchant crews of HX 84, SLS 64, and the unescorted merchant ships sunk by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau near Newfoundland. It's a great doc, the gist of it is that Admiral Darlan promised Churchill that the French Navy would never fall into German hands. Throughout early October Washington’s 14,000 Franco-American troops steadily overcame the British army’s fortified positions at Yorktown. French forces attempted to buy everything from the locals that they couldn’t ship in, rather than requisition it. Additionally, such a forward action by the British showed Roosevelt that the British wouldn't roll over like the French, and were going to fight until the end. In WWII, why didn't the French navy join the British, and free France after the surrender? With one exeption, the navy of France. So, Chamberlain and … During World War Two as one nation fell after another their navies would escape to fight on. During World War Two as one nation fell after another their navies would escape to fight on. Because Britain was militarily inferior to her enemies, her only hope of survival during a protracted war was persuading outside powers to intervene on her behalf. If you have a copy, OP, and don't want to read the whole thing, skip to the chapters that follow the armistice at Compiègne. And when war came to the Pacific, the Fleet could have deployed in defense of French Indochina and other French possessions, as well as giving critical support to the Royal Navy. They were attacking with torpedoes on the surface, where they had an edge over the merchant ships with their speed. Over the objections of the Royal Navy, Prime Minister Winston Churchill and the British War Cabinet decided to send an ultimatum to the main French naval force. Along the entire queue not a word was spoken. Winston Churchill's decision to destroy the French fleet in Oran wouldn't have had happened if the French navy just joined. I've re-read your post many times. Due to the nature of the peace treaty, Vichy France was the Official, legitimate government of France. Why didn't the French Navy join the British in 1940. The outbreak of full-scale conflict between Japan and China in July 1937 had little to do with the USA and its people. Surrendering the fleet or having it interned by a neutral power wouldn't appear to … I can't quite tell if you are implying the event in your question, but the Mers-el-Kébir event sealed the deal. Churchill's message was clear: sail to Britain, sail to the USA, or scuttle your ships in the next six hours. The British and French betrayal of Poland in 1939 was not only dishonest, it was a military stupidity of truly monumental dimensions. Press J to jump to the feed. George Washington was a great general, but the Continental Army simply didn’t have the money, men, training, or seafaring vessels necessary to defeat the British… Why didn't the French Navy hand over their ships to the British at Mers-el-Kébir during WW2, after having signed an armistice with Germany? This promise wasn't enough after France was captured by the Nazis. Neither were the auxiliary cruisers or the pocket battleships. The British Navy, aided by a volunteer flotilla of nearly 900 small merchant ships, fishing vessels and pleasure boats of all sizes, sailed across the English Channel to Dunkirk as British soldiers waited for rescue on the beach. B. France, one of the most powerful countries in the world had fell within weeks. But Washington didn’t lose his sense of good manners with the battle. The settlers established the colony of Vancouver Island that year. From what I've read, Hitler was somewhat happy that the french fleet was down, nearly the whole french army was now neutralized, even in non-occupied territories, although the germans may have been disappointed not to have captured as much ships as possible. The British could marshal superior resources against a France wracked with financial problems, and the British navy mounted successful blockades and, after the Battle of Quiberon Bay on November 20th, 1759, shattered France’s ability to operate in the Atlantic. Cornwallis was forced to surrender to Washington and Rochambeau. And if I didn’t know better, I’d even be tempted to say that’s the other way around when one reads the British tabloid press. Apparently, neither did the Marine Nationale (National French Navy) for they dispersed their vessels to ports in Britain, Egypt and other places. 1. Above: The Royal Navy engaged at The Battle of Cape St Vincent, 16 January 1780. Napoleon ordered the French and Spanish ships and 90,000 men out of Cadiz to do battle with the British. May 3, 2016, 9:59 AM. At the outbreak of the war, Canada was a Dominion of the British Empire. “On top of that, there’s the fact that French-Canadians’ religious … But another thing was the German U-Boats were not attacking convoys via underwater torpedo attack. As such their objective would have been to do the best thing for France and not for Britain, including retaining a modicum of independence. The French didn't have the British equivalent of a 'dominion'. Since the Vichy was largely under German control, was there a push to use said navy against the Allies? Neither were the auxiliary cruisers or the pocket battleships. I can't quite tell if you are implying the event in your question, but the Mers-el-Kébir event sealed the deal. Nowhere were those events watched more closely than in Great Britain and France, two European powers with a ve… Even if you can see it as a necessary action, put yourself in the shoes of a French sailor, it would turn your stomach. It was the Royal Canadian Navy that doubled and quad-druppeled their size in manpower and ships and relieved the Royal Navy of most of the escort duties. They gave their former allies four choices: join the British fleet, sail to a British port from where those crew members that so desired would be repatriated, sail to a French possession in America or to the United States, … The British Navy on the Atlantic and by British military power in the interior both guarded the fur trade. -Right-wing attitudes, up to the war there had been a strong Right wing political presence in France which could easily sympathise with the newly created Vichy France, which was based on many Right wing ideals and national traditions. At some point, perhaps feeling outnumbered, Mary decided to solicit the advice of her brother Joseph Ball in England. As a means of accomplishing this, he planned to have a British force arrive off Mers-el-Kebir and offer Gensoul four alternatives–have the French fleet join the Roayl Navy, take the fleet to British ports with reduced crews, take the fleet to a French West Indian port or a U.S. port and be decommissioned, or sink the fleet right there in Mers-el-Kebir’s harbor. The armistice the French had signed with Germany stipulated that the French fleet would remain under French control, largely demilitarized and confined to harbor. Combined with the other points you make, it makes it an attractive proposition. The Royal Navy (RN) is the United Kingdom's naval warfare force.Although warships were used by English and Scottish kings from the early medieval period, the first major maritime engagements were fought in the Hundred Years' War against the Kingdom of France.The modern Royal Navy traces its origins to the early 16th century; the oldest of the UK's armed services, it is known as … Indeed, Napoleon's restrictive decrees increased the danger of U.S. ships being taken by the French navy and others. Dated … Should the French refuse to accept any of these alternatives, British commanders were … I'm just curious, if you had to go back in time 70 years, into Winston Churchill's shoes, would you have ordered the attack on Mers-el-Kebir? And from what we can guess, they were probably happy too of the anti-british feeling that this event created. Businessmen came to recognize that their economic stake in the imperial system far outweighed any political discontent over the Quebec Act -- and that Act, after all had re-attached the valuable southwest fur domains to Canada. The Portal for Public History by wright61 » 19 Sep 2006, 00:10, Post The French ships were not able to join in an attack on British-occupied New York City because they could not get across a sandbar that blocked the entrance into the harbor. Then they dragged him away, totured and executed him of precious metal in doing so further! Have lived fight U-Boats with battleships reading regarding right wing/traditionalist attitudes in world... Him to Churchill was smuggled out '' I say ~ now, do! Shipping from submarine attack War I its main mission was the French sense. Spanish ships and 90,000 men out of Cadiz to do battle with the British favored an military. To arrive from new York, the most primary factor the main concentration, however, there! 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